Greasing deralliur pulleys

I wanted to get grease into the pullys on the derailleur from my BGA velectrik

I Was able to dissasemble the small pulley by using unscrewing the cones, using a large screwdriver on one side to hold them, and using the points of a pair of large Ikea scissors to turn the other side.

Hers are the parts after being soaked in white spirits and cleaned.

TIP: don't leave parts in white spirits too long. They go rusty. I left these in for a few days, and had to clean the rust off afterwards (I was going to replace the bearings anyway)

 Below is the pulley with the cone from one side in, and packed with bearings and Morningstar feehub soup grease.

Challenge: Where does the washer go? The picture above shows a small copper-colored split-ring washer that came out of the pulley. I cannot figure where/why to put it back in. It seems strange to put it in on one side only; and it seems like it would only interfear with the action of the bearings/cones. I have left it out.

 Here is the pully packed with grease again.















 Below are the 2 faces of the larger pulley

Challenge: How to dissasemble this pulley?  I could isolate the face of the pulley on one side, and turn the face on the other side, but it just rotated, and did not screw off. I think they must be pressed in. I did not want to risk destroying it by levering it out.

 My solution was to spray penetrating grease around the sides of the pulley. This actually seemed to get some grease in there. I didn't put the pulley in solvent before regreasing it... perhaps that was a mistake?

Penetrating oil

I started a thread on bikeforums.net on how to remove a lockring from an old vintage chainring. A number of people suggested that the WD40 I was using was not as good as other penetrating oils. In particular the following were suggested.

• PB Blaster
• Kroil

Of course, as far as I can determine neither are available in France (or on amazon.co.uk).

On amazon.com, I could get the 8oz Kroil  shipped to me (since its not an aerosol) for 11$ plus 55$ shipping. They would not ship the 1 gallon container though.

Searching around further, I came across this thread;

**Machinist's Workshop magazine tested penetrants for break out torque on**
**rusted nuts with significant results!**

**They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with the**
**control being the torque required to remove the nut from a**
**"scientifically rusted" environment.**

***Penetrating oil ...... Average load***
**None ....................... 516 pounds**
**WD-40 ................... 238 pounds**
**PB Blaster .............. 214 pounds**
**Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds**
**Kano Kroil ............. 106 pounds**
**ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds**

**The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic**
**transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any**
**commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist**
**group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. **
**Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20%**
**of the price.**

If you search there are lots of references to this magazine test on various forums. Much discussion centers around the fact that ATF and Acetone do not really mix, but apparently if you just shake up the container berfore applying, thats all it needs.

I went to feu vert, but could not find ATF fluid (and I really looked hard and asked for help). I did find Acetone in Mr Bricolage hardware store for 4 euros for 1 litre, and I found ATF in Leclerc supermarket for 5.5 euros for (a small container)

• 4 euros for 1 liter of Acetone
• 5.5 euros for 5000ml of WYNN'S "Fuuide de direction asistee ATF (type A - Suffixe A)

I have not tried it yet, I will see if this mix makes a difference in getting the chainring lockring off.

TIP: difficult to say if it worked. OK now I have tried it, and it didn't seem to make any difference to the difficulty in removing the lockring.

RUST NEVER SLEEPS

1. What is the best way to remove rust from a bare frame (and/or the parts that came off it)
2. How to prevent rust from reforming inside the frame
3. How to prevent rust from reforming on the frame surface (and on parts)

 

 NB. I am still working on this post. It is not finished yet.

 

  What is the best way to remove rust from a bare frame (and/or the parts that came off it)

 Oxalic Acid?

Oxalic Acid Wikipedia Page

The vintage BMX forum has an extremely long thread that raves about the superiority of Oxalic acid over all other forms of rust removal.

Post 201:
What NOT to put in there....
1 DO NOT put ALUMINUM in there.
The sugino sprocket was aluminum no? No good.
2 DO NOT put Black Oxided parts that you want to keep the Black Oxide on. It takes it off really, really well. Rust is Iron Oxide. Black Oxide is a controlled layer of Iron Oxide. Takes it right off!
3 DO NOT put Anodized aluminum in there. No good!

Post 337 (page 34)

If something goes grey when being dipped in Oxalic acid , it usually means that it is not actually or properly chrome plated or possibly the steel underneath it is "wrong"

I had a pair of (lighty used) double row timing chain sprockets for a Cleveland V8 , they _looked_ like they were chrome plated & I could see minor surface rust showing on each of the cogs. So I threw them into the bath & let them sit with the assortment of BMX & other shiny metal parts I was testing out for rust removal in general.
The 2 cogs came out , then after a quick was in the clean water tank next to it , they were lookin grey & dead , none of the previous chrome or shine on them at all. I don't know wether it was "flashing" but it's obvious that you should not put shiny high performance aftermarket heat treated steel things that shine & have surface rust on them into an oxy acid bath. I knew that the timing chain gears were not chrome plated , just wanted to see if the surface rust would lift , it didn't.

Oxalic Acid Safety

The consesnis seems to be that in non-dilute form it needs to be handled very carfully, and this is what all the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) information addresses. In the very dilute forms in which it is used for rust removal, the majority opinion is that it is quite safe. (some people don't even use gloves when handeling it)

For a really good discussion of the supposed dangers of Oxalic Acid and a rebuttal, see posts 437 to 440 on the vintage BMX thread here  (this is a direct link to page 44 of the thread). The next page has more great information on Oxalic Acid safety.

A good source for Oxalic Acid in the USA: ChemistryStore (from same vintage BMX thread)

 this post;

bikemeister

Seal all the holes except two with pieces of rubber - pieces of an old inner tube will do. Then connect a tank of dry nitrogen to one of the holes with a hose, and crack open the valve. 2-3 psi will do fine. Let it blow through the frame, venting out the other hole (and any weld holes there are) for 30 minutes. Borrow a tank from a friend - the refill is like $15. We use nitrogen to dry out refrigerant lines all day long - it's cheap, non-toxic, and leaves no residue.

Naval Jelly

 I see a lot of references to Naval jelly, which is a rust treatment gel that you apply externally;

Wikipedia discusses it under its Phosphoric acid entry;

Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe₂O₃ (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO₄.
"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.
After treatment, the black ferric phosphate coating can be scrubbed off, leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).

it is available in Europe

From the mega BMX thread (post 301; page 31);

Has anyone tried NAVAL JELLY. I have a buddy that does classic car restoration. He swears by it. I was telling him about the acid baths on here. 

And then post 304;

Naval Jelly is as old as the Navy. They use it to spread all over the ships.
It's like working with paint stripper. You smear on this Icky, messy, sticky, gooey, glop, and you can't do the insides of the frames with it. Ishy, ishy, ishy.
For smearing on the sides of ships with a paint roller, yeah, for BMX stuff, it's a waste of time and energy.
The OA bath is the ticket, forget the naval jelly.

Evaporust? 

http://www.theruststore.com/Rust-Removers-C1.aspx

This flickr picture alerted me to the evaporust product. The user in this case seems very happy, and it seems to be completly non-toxic, and poses zero threat to the steel (unlike Oxalic Acid)

I send an email to the evapo-rust contact us web form and received back a list of International distributers;

Harris Labs does not have a distributor in France but we have several in the surrounding countries.

Netherlands:     Dr. Low Tuning Shop, marko@drlowtuningshop.com , phone (31) 629 581 428

Spain:    Sistemas de Produccion Limpia, spl@spl.es , phone (34) 945 292 373

Switzerland:       General Parts , info@generalparts.ch , phone (41) 61 461 7733

Ireland: Reliance Auto , kevinloughnane@eircom.net , phone (353) 86 815 8600

Belgium: Tramos , info@tramos.be , phone (32) 3825 4448 (sells under the name of “Bioderuster”)

I purchased 24 liters from the Irish distributor.

I was quoted 24 liters for 127 € + 61 € postage (188€ total).  There is also 208 litre container at € 1023.36 and 1000 litres at € 4920.00.

This forum thread contains good information in evaporust. Including this (post #14)

Further it was mentioned that yo should use Evapo-Rust sparingly, small container to fit the part. This too is wrong. A small container will saturate very quickly and the product will quit working much too soon. I use a 5 gal. pail all the time and I probably clean a thousand parts in it over a period of a year. I am restoring a 56 Studebaker, and every small part that will fit into the pail gets cleaned. If the piece is too long it gets one end done then turned over. Large parts such as a door off the car goes flat into a tray made from 2x6 and plywood with a heavy plastic sheet in it.

... and post #17

First Evapo-Rust is a chelation agent not an acid or chemical but a synthetic iron molecule suspended in water with a PH of 7, neutral. If you rinse with hot water and the humidity is not too high you will probably have to do nothing. However drying it quickly is the key to prevent flash rust as when clean, your metal surface will be as virgin metal with no oil film to prevent rust, so priming it quickly is important.
Unlike phosphoric acid this product leaves no film or residue and is safe on skin and the environment. No special precautions required.
Check here for FAQ and how it works,.

 Posts 24,25, and 26 refer to this problem (which the guy in the flicker photo says he never experienced)

A couple of times now I have had problems with EvapoRust leaving an etched line in the metal being de-rusted, right where meets the air where I've allowed it to stick out of the solution.
Once the etching is there, there appears to be no way to remove it aside from sanding or filing it.

Deox-C?

This product was recommended by Rob of Cycle De France This product is easily available in europe, and Rob seems to know what he is doing.

Price for 4kg is 40.80 pounds + 24.66 pounds for shipping = 65.66 pounds = 77 euros

It seems to have the same non-toxic, neutral PH characteristics as evaporust, but is available in powdered form and easily obtained in Europe.

It would be interesting to know exactly how it differs from evaporust when it is in liquid form!

From the "how to use" section on the product link above;

2) deox-C solutions can be varied in strength from 5-20%. For the heavy corrosion on the cam shaft a 10% solution was made by adding 1 part powder to 9 parts water - by weight.

so, assuming it takes 20 liters of liquid to cover half the bike,

• 20 liters = 20 kilograms
• 10% of 20 kilograms = 2 kilograms required to treat bike.
• 4kg of Deox-c costs 77 euros (includes postage)
• so... 1 treatment (can be reused a few times), costs about 38 euros.

How much liquid product is required to treat a frame?

1 liter = 1 kilogram = 10cm3
5 gallons is 18.9 liters

Measurements taken from my BGA velectrik

• Length (dropout to headpost) 110cm
• Height (Bottom bracket to toptube) 60cm
• Bottom bracket width 8cm
• 1 chainstay (up BB) 5cm
• Dropout width 14cm

So to do 1 chainstay at a time (1 side of bike);

• bike frame is 1.10meter × .6meter ×  .05meter = 8.7 gallons or 33 liters
• subtract 42% by using empty wine bottles to fill in voids = 5.05 gallons or 19.14 liters

So to do entire frame in one go;

• bike frame is 1.10meter × .6meter ×  .05meter = 24.4 gallons or 92.4 liters
• subtract 42% by using empty wine bottles to fill in voids = 14 gallons or 53.5 liters

How to prevent rust from reforming inside the frame?

This thread casts doubt on whether frame saver is really needed in bike frames. (my opinion is along the lines of better safe than sorry / its cheap insurance. Also is probably a lot more necessary after you have intentionally submerged a frame in liquid (rust remover) for several hours.)

"Forget it. The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a hypothetical consideration brought on by frame failures that occurred from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the tube that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.

If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick grease is good enough) there won't be enough moisture in the frame to cause significant rust. Back in the days when everyone rode steel, internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all weather or more. Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear mongering. I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the 1950's and never had a rust problem. But what if...???"

That's Jobst Brandt. In the same tread, just above Jobst's post, Sheldon expresses his opinion:

"If you're just talking about spraying [rust proofing], you're probably right. Weigel's Frame Saver, if you follow the directions, is a different matter. The procedure is fairly complicated and messy, involving plugging tubes temporarily with rags and tipping the frame back and forth various ways to distribute the goo. I believe it is effective when done properly, but even in snowy/salty New England I very, very rarely see a bicycle with serious rust damage to the frame."

LPS 3 

I learnt about this product from post 50 in the Vintage BMX Oxalic Acid thread. 

And one more thing. DON'T skimp or forget about rustproofing the insides as soon as it comes out of the bath! You are removing a piece of raw metal with an oxygen rich surface on it. Use crummy old WD-40 if you have to for now, but get something on the raw metal as soon as it comes out of the bath. LPS-3 is my choice for availability, and longivity. I am talking about the insides, not the chrome plated side here.

http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/CorrosionInh/Lps3.asp

The stuff is tested on plates of metal in salt water ocean surfs. The 2 year rating is when exposed to the elements. It will last forever inside a BMX frame. But can be degreased out if needed.  

I have sent a message to the French Distributor via their contact page on the web, asking where/how I can buy this.

The distrubutor only sells by the 12 pack.
14.50euros per can (x 12) = 174 euros or 232 dollars
19.00 euros shipping
37.83 euros tax
-------------------
230.83 euros total = ~20 euros per can
== 306 US dollars = 25.5 US dollars per can
Amazon.com has 12 cans for 110 US dollars (no tax/ and 5$ shipping to California). But aerosols cannot be shipped to France

I noticed that Bilthamber also sells cavity waxes in addition to the Deox-C rust remover. I purchased 2 cans of this product, but had to pay ;

13.22 pounds per can (15 euros / 20 dollars)
25.00 pounds hazardous shipping (29 euros / 39 dollars)

I received LPS-3 and Bilthamber Dynax S-50.

 First impressions are;

•  Although they are both ~15euros a can, the Dynax is 750ml and the LPS-3 is just 380ml.
• The Dynax S-50 comes with a great long flexible hose that makes getting inside all the tubes much easier and more reliable. I think it has a 260 degree "fountain" spray pattern which is perfect, and probably very different from the LPS "WD40-like" straw. This is probably a deal-winner for me.
• So far I have only used the Dynax S-50 but it goes on very fast, and very liquid, so you can pull the hose out very quickly while you are spraying and you will get good coverage. I was not so fast and I had a lot of liquid run out of the frame. After spraying I rotated the frame around to be doubly sure I got good coverage. After it dried, I felt around inside the tubes and it did seem to have good thick coverage.
• Knowing what I know now, I would stick with Dynax S-50 over the LPS-3

Here is a link to a USA based web store that sells rust treatment products

Here is a link to Surly bikes instructions on applying frame saver to their frames.

How to prevent rust from reforming on the frame surface (and on parts)

<This section still very much a work in progress>  

The vintage BMX thread discusses polishing chrome and aluminum in great detail. (page 16/17) recommends Met-all polish (for chrome and aluminum at least)

 http://www.theruststore.com/Renaissance-Wax-P235C80.aspx
http://www.amazon.co.uk/RENAISSANCE-PRE-LIM-CLEANER-65ML-CANS/dp/B003ZWA708

For bare metal (eg chrome and aluminium) the French Tonton forum kept referencing Belgom Alu. Today I visited Feu Vert (crappy auto store in France) and saw it on the shelves I purchased the following;
-- Belgom Alu 500ML for 22.69euros
-- Belgom Chromes 250ML for 11.79euros